By PatD, a Trail Mix Contributor
While getting set for the kick-off game on Monday between Team Hillary and Team Trump, an article on the background of how this superbowl came to be caught my eye.
The State of the Presidential Debate
How should candidates—and voters—argue about politics?
By Jill Lepore, The New Yorker
Aside from historic references, political insider tales and the discovery that a man named Ailes is still coaching debaters, it had other lessons worth sharing. The following excerpt seems applicable to recent discussions on the Trail:
“Political argument has been having a terrible century. Instead of arguing, everyone from next-door neighbors to members of Congress has got used to doing the I.R.L. equivalent of posting to the comments section: serially fulminating. The U.S. Supreme Court is one Justice short of a full bench, limiting its ability to deliberate, because Senate Republicans refused to hold the hearings required in order to fill that seat. They’d rather do battle on Twitter. Democratic members of Congress, unable to get the House of Representatives to debate gun-control measures, held a sit-in, live-streamed on Periscope. At campaign events, and even at the nominating Conventions, protesters have tried to silence other people’s speech in the name of the First Amendment. On college campuses, administrators, faculty, and students who express unwelcome political views have been fired and expelled. Even high-school debate has come under sustained attack from students who, refusing to argue the assigned political topic, contest the rules. One in three Americans declines to discuss politics except in private; fewer than one in four ever talk with someone with whom they disagree politically; fewer than one in five have ever attended a problem-solving meeting, even online, with people holding views different from their own. What kind of democracy is that?”
Will we individuals ever return to civil discourse, civil discussion and civil debate while civilly listening to those with whom we disagee let alone allow, expect and want that of our government leaders and representatives?
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don’t know pat- lots of keyboard warriors and trolls out there spewing hate and lies which has created a very aggressive atmosphere. for instance i was the recipient of a veiled threat to my life here years ago.. it seemed shocking at the time but sadly not so much now.
most excellent comment tony!
you know the press is pretty bad when the pope starts commenting on it.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-media-idUSKCN11S26D?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=57e45c9604d30161488db9c9&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
fine post, patd…eprof hit on the digital explosion, expulsion and plain old puking of opine…which I am adding here. My belief that after years of the social isolation of home schooling and the lack of civics history and training in public schools? — many digital newcomers to democracy haven’t a clue about the historical and the relevance in politics…mostly living in the digital and the emotional ‘now.’
Woo Hoo ( guess this is from the past?) Patd – Is there debate anywhere today? As I read your post I think of my responsibility to encourage debate and also present a respectful and open position that does not discourage but invites others to share their thoughts. I know I have a long way to go. Many times we have the same objective to achieve a good result however we see a different path to the same result. We do not ask “Why” and try to understand the others path. OSH – I like the link to the edited… Read more »
and the politic digital allows hacks like trump to tether to the dialog and control its content with his junk. mr pp, trump is very threatening to me…I know his supporters like to see that fear, the bed wetting, etc., but every time I think of trump…immediately the nibelungenlied comes to mind…I understand trump wanted the song of the neblelungs to be played at his convention…mannafort (remember him?) explained it to him gently. From the wikipedia…sound familiar? Using the ‘song’ to promote nationalism. Imagery from the Nibelungenlied was used in many poems, essays, posters and speeches at every stage in the development… Read more »
or maybe it is just my sixty-two years of hyper vigilance for dickheads, like trump, nixon, etc. that causes such fear.
Blonde Can we agree that both Hillary and Donald have the same situation? Can we agree that the editorial hosts are clearly not helping dig into getting the passion behind the candidates? Your post is very interesting trying to link American Patriotism is not a good and is a basis of evil. I invite you to explore the basket of people that support Trump. You will find they are giving, hard working and loving people. I understand that Trumps style, context and messaging can be hard to get past. No doubt he has done a very poor job but is… Read more »
Last evening I watched the interview on Charlie Rose with different tapper and new yorker osnos regarding his article on President trump’s First Term. trump can and will undo anything Obama…sort of how russia used to get rid of all references, history, etc. for its former leaders…sanitizing. Stalin always comes to mind.
never vote for trump as it is not a matter of style, manner, prejudice, etc., he doesn’t fit the job…his resume is weak and I believe he will be easily played on international scene…china would manipulate him like their currency…mexico has already played him. Plus, I cannot vote for anyone who does not pay taxes and keeps coming back to the middle for his military waste and might while we are still repairing the vets from past 60 years of wars. Besides, I already found a level headed and an experienced woman for the job…let us save some money and… Read more »
BTW, I am a patriot…I am a watchful border citizen..on our trip to visit the skin shaman in Silver City? Hubby and I vigilantly searched for the ISIS camps that drudge used to write about on a daily basis…camps of RITs (radical islamic terrorists, per trump). Yes, the dimmers just need to visit this area before they make their bombastic judgments. trumps visit to Albuquerque? Cost us taxpayers a chunk of change for the damage of the riots he incites. He insulted most of us in the state and claimed that his job was to entertain us….really pp? Is he… Read more »
ping, thank you for hanging in here with us. some days on the trail must be pretty rough on you. two tho’ts on two of your comments: “Many times we have the same objective to achieve a good result however we see a different path to the same result.” yep, first step in good negotiating is to find the common goal of both sides and proceed the best way to get there together….. sorta how to share the umbrella. “Hillary has had so many decades to know how to play the system in this regard.” that kinda is the gist of enjoying a… Read more »
pp knows how to play foil and he may believe he is helping us. The fact that Clinton can get repugs to vote for her? A sign that she is more unifying than the bullying and forceful trump. Might makes right in the boardroom? Might is incorrect in government.
I leave with the phrase I heard repeatedly earlier this century….Don’t you like your freedom? The veiled threat from repugs to keep quiet and stay in line or else?
sea, thanks for the pope link. now the dalai lama has his say.
Dalai Lama World Exclusive With Piers Morgan On ISIS, Trump And Twitter | Good Morning Britiain
Thanks Patd I love this place! I have lots of fun here and also lots of respect for Craig. I learned long ago to look and listen past the presentation and try to understand the core. What is the passion and drive of the person? What is the background? What is the agenda? Maybe that is why I have chosen to support Donald Trump vs Hillary. I listened beyond his flare and entertainment. And yes at first I could have gone either way. Hillary truly had a chance with this moderate, white, middle class, southern boy that wants to see… Read more »
change is already here, ping, and so sad in many ways
Ping
Thank you for the comments and the good points.
Usually I dismiss what you say as they come across as trolls.
Thanks for joining in the discussion.
Jack
This discussion has me thinking about our worst presidents. Kinda negative, I know, but I’d say Franklin Pierce, a drunk anti-abolitionist whose policies paved the way for the Civil War. President of the World, Ping? At least Obama didn’t move us to the metric system. And I don’t see that in Hillary’s agenda.
Ping: “I listened beyond his flare and entertainment.”
I’ve long thought that’s a reason he seems unsinkable no matter what he says. Many just think he’s joking half the time, aggravating the media and his foes, then doubling down when they do get aggravated. Must admit it’s sort of fun to watch. Lesson for Hillary in the debates: Don’t take the bait!
Ping, when RW hacks like Michael Gerson (Heritiage Foundation, GWB speechwriter and senior advisor 2000-2006) judge drumpf to be uninformed on the single largest threat many see Islamic terrorism to be, how could anyone who shares that view vote FOR him. and to add insult to injury, Gerson points out: Those who believe that preening bluster makes up for willful ignorance and dangerously poor policy judgment have found their man. But this is not the worst of it. Anyone who has spent time working in the White House would attest that the single most important presidential attribute is leadership in times… Read more »
One example of why Trump vs Hillary.
We cannot afford to pay for the Healthcare of anyone that shows up. We need to take full care of Americans first. We have so many other issues and the piggy bank has already been robbed by us.
Ping A question for you when you talk about someone’s core. There is no denying that both of the Clintons have profited well from a life in politics, writing, and speeches. As far as I can see every dime was made in some legitimate form even allowing for insider contacts and associations. While doing so they have given generously to charity on their own and established a means that benefits millions globally. So far in just this campaign, Donald Trump has made over eight million dollars. Made speeches to a non existent Institute that paid him millions. Taken thousands in search… Read more »
Maybe this is a male female thing like the Three Stooges vs. The Marx Brothers. I don’t find anything about Trump fun or funny. Right from the beginning before a single GOP candidate dropped by the wayside, I found him to be boorish and loathsome … A truly disgusting human being. This has nothing to do with Hillary. If I were a life long Republican, I would be ashamed to back a man that I genuinely believe is a danger to my country. Luckily I can’t be arrested for thinking what I would like to see happen to him if it… Read more »
“We cannot afford to pay for the Healthcare of anyone that shows up” ping, you might be interested in looking at this rand corp recent report I linked on last of last thread from rand corp: Estimating the Impacts of the Trump and Clinton Health Plans The researchers estimated the likely effects of each policy relative to the Affordable Care Act in 2018 (if it were unchanged) on the number of people with health insurance, consumer out-of-pocket spending and the federal deficit. Funded by the Commonwealth Fund, the analysis can be found in its entirety on the Commonwealth Fund website.… Read more »
For every biased article for, there are equal against. What are the authors intentions, Passion and agenda? We all gravitate to other sources to support our claims, passion and agenda.
Another reason for Trump is Job Creator and also equal pay for Women. Trump has actually achieved what Hillary has not regarding the support for women. Hillary has good intentions but even with full control of our government just 4 short years ago, what was advanced?
quite a telling comparison of what to expect foreign policy wise of the candidates in this wapo editorial:
The Post’s View
The stark difference between Trump’s and Clinton’s meeting with a dictator
ACA is Payment reform and NOT Healthcare reform. True it is a driver to bring true Healthcare Reform but managed by a central government will not bring the advances we need. Innovation, advances made by Pioneers to improve outcomes at lower cost are true healthcare reform. Do you want the care available today or from even just 20 years ago? What is the driver of these vast improvements? Risk / Reward combined with innovation, knowledge and passion. An easy example is exploratory surgery. Something from the past that is barbaric compared with today’s healthcare. How did we come to such… Read more »
ping, are you saying the rand corporation is biased in their research and assessment of the two healthcare proposals?
patd…. great post! I too like civil discourse… but (you knew that was coming) every now and then a little passion in a post can give a spark. Take for instance the exchanges between Will Buckley and Gore Vidal that you referenced when I mentioned I had just read Vidal’s authorized biography. 98% of the time Firing Line was very civil even when discussing opposing points of view. Buckley and Vidal, however, clearly got under each other’s skin. Those exchanges are probably the most referenced and well remembered of any during Firing Line’s tenure.
ny post: Joe Scarborough’s son hospitalized after bad fall “His son Andrew had a horrible accident. Head injury, fractured skull… He fell down a flight of stairs,” said Brzezinski, adding that doctors “stabilized” Andrew who is recovering at Bellevue Hospital. “It’s touch and go, but we’re stabilized, and,” said Brzezinski, letting out a huge sigh. “It’s a long night. And prayers for them.” Brzezinski added that she, along with much of the “Morning Joe” team, went to the hospital overnight to support Scarborough. “We want to thank the folks at Bellevue what an incredible place. I can tell you because I saw… Read more »
PATD, WAPO – WOW POO! The are so status quo and into the current central control and Trump is a threat to their progressive liberal agenda. He will never get an even halfway fair treatment from that not even rag. (was that outside of appropriateness?) Question – How did Egypt become so unstable? Another reason not to vote for Hillary and the continuation of the dangerous failed policy of the last 8 years. OK – We can all agree that Hillary is much more of a Hawk then Barack. No doubt however the world today is so much more dangerous… Read more »
Ping
I agree with you journalism is dead unfortunately nothing else you said about Trump is true. He is not a friend to women and he is not promoting equal pay and his child care program only helps the rich
“What do you have to lose?”
everything I value, ping.
daily beast:
Trevor Noah Gets Real on Police Shootings: Black People Aren’t ‘Crazy’
‘The Daily Show’ host turns serious while discussing yet another spate of police shootings.
Ping
What do I have to lose? The country I love in favor of Hitler’s Germany while handing it over to a bunch of white power yahoos. Godwin’s Law be damned. Trump is running for dictator not President.
“What do you have to lose?” Everything I value, ping.
patd… bears repeating…
I too think that actions speak louder than words. Trump’s failure to pay people he hires to do work for him speaks volumes to me. I could never vote for a man of such actions.
Hundreds Claim Trump Doesn’t Pay His Bills in Full…
excerpt from oped also in wapo today by Andrei Kozyrev, foreign minister of the Russian Federation from 1990 to 1996, is a distinguished fellow with the Wilson Center’s Kennan Institute Ex-Russian foreign minister: Trump’s autocratic ways make me panicky …I expect some Americans to say: “It is our business. You, foreigner, have no say in it.” This would be so, were America not great. But America is great. It is a superpower that plays a unique global role. When there is some new national leader — “Il Duce” in Italian — trying to impose a new order anywhere in the… Read more »
Ping, Trump as “Job Creator” — he would do well to lay out some plausible specifics on how he’d do that in government — trickle down? public works? It might take a forceful Republican president to get a serious (and expensive) jobs program through the GOP Congress, but not sure what he’d do. Confident assertions and references to his business career aren’t convincing enough. I’d welcome a Trump presidency if I thought he really has the plans and skill set to get the middle income workforce back on track. Tired of just rhetoric from Democrats. John Edwards was the last Dem I believed would… Read more »
Hi, Ping. I hear you saying that Hillary talks out of both sides of her mouth–choosing sides depending on the listeners. That is quite possibly accurate as most subjects are complex and legislation affects different parts of our country (constituencies) unequally. It is only logical to place proposed legislation in an (intellectually honest) light that will be favorably received by any particular group at any particular time. That does not mean that some topics are not exceedingly direct. The Freedoms in our Bill of Rights are examples. Just straight talk there with no nuance. Other things of that importance would… Read more »
Egypt is unstable because of years of American policy supporting the
air force instead of democracy ..more republican policy than democrat. Republicans seem to suffer from catastrophic memory loss
Drunk Donald Trump
https://youtu.be/m65qEQxEek0
https://youtu.be/FmTjr904-us
https://youtu.be/hGYvFVcZ1fw
patd – I am not saying the Rand is biased. Health and Healthcare (Two different connected elements) are very complex before you connect them to social agenda. I do not see the Rand Report responding to the motivational elements of Hillary that will provide healthcare to anyone that shows up and at a cost that will take away from the needs of Americans first.
Hillary and her plan are costly and do not address the many complex issues. The Hillary plan will continue the path to bankruptcy by continuing the open door policy to meet her world political agenda.
Who is defined here as an American. Clinton plans to provide health care for Americans . Trump does not.
When “Americans” go abroad and get sick in countries with so called socialized medicine – they come home and talk about the wonderful care and no charge… duh!
As a proud Floridian how do you feel about the Republican congress blocking zika funding
More early voting stats — advantage Dems..
State
Dem
GOP
IA
59.4%
19.1%
NC
41.1%
33.8%
ME
49.0%
26.0%
Flatus Love the comments – I would argue that the Bill of Rights and Moral Responsibility are two different elements. Many times this is confused. The CENTRAL ISSUE between Trump and Hillary is the loss of direction of the Democratic party. Compare the famous words from John F. Kennedy’s inaugural address, “ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” We can stop the presses and the blog right here!!!!! Today it is all about giving away and nothing about personal responsibility. I will not go into the Socialist Progressive failed policy… Read more »
Gee Ping
I would think you would want to be a proud defender of what Trump is saying instead of having to lie about his plans
His health care is only for people who can afford it. Live free die takes on a new meaning with Trump
No food, no food stamps, no problem soon you will be dead
Certainly one way to get rid of our “excess” population. BE a proud Republican stand up for what you really believe in not the lies you are posting here
craig, any indication of better than average turnout for the early birds at this early stage… either party?
Enjoyed the dialogue Craig – Early vote but does it change if not motivated? Also response to your question about Job Creation. How cool is it we are having so much political discourse? Why? Trump! He is addressing concerns and you may not agree with him but he IS THE REASON this is happening. No one of his or Hillary’s magnitude can escape criticism. We can go back and forth, share creative stuff supporting and attacking each other all day long. Trump will win because he is bringing up these issues. I saw genuine care and concern for those that… Read more »
ping, you may just get your wish… and be careful what you wish for… according to this guy at fix in wapo:
Trump is headed for a win, says professor who has predicted 30 years of presidential outcomes correctly