User-Supported News Commentary Hosted by Craig Crawford
to honor those who stood up by standing at standing rock
ny times: As North Dakota Pipeline Is Blocked, Veterans at Standing Rock Cheer
Several of the veterans who lined up wore caps saying, “Native Veteran.” Some were old men, veterans of Korea and postwar Europe, who said they had grown up in Indian boarding schools where they were beaten for speaking their language. Some drove in from reservations across the Plains.
Many said they came ready to form a barrier between protesters and law enforcement.
“A lot of people here are willing to sacrifice their body, willing to give their life,” said Vincent Emanuele, 32, a former Marine who served in Iraq and has spoken out extensively against what he called a futile war. “You might as well die for something that means something.”
Others said they did not care much about politics and had never joined a protest. But they said they had been moved by the tribe’s fight to block a crucial section of the 1,170-mile pipeline. Or they said they were angry at seeing images of violent clashes between lines of law enforcement and Native Americans.
“I just couldn’t believe what was happening in the United States,” Mr. Brocar, 44, said. “Even in Iraq, there was some rule of engagement. If these guys don’t have weapons, it just doesn’t make sense to me that it’s a shooting gallery.”
And now the pipeline marauders say they will keep going. Just waiting for a new administration that will allow them to continue to rape treaty land.
honor them? for what? It is a nimby movement. Just because these particular nimbys are also indigenous peoples we are supposed to honor them?
and the “rape native lands”? really? This is bordering on silly.
So are we repeating the sixties ? That means we are at the revolution for the hell of it phase or so it seems.
Now we understand Donald Trump better. I’m really too old for this rince and repeat shit.
TALLAHASSEE — Three central Florida voters are mounting an unlikely bid to overturn the presidential election result in the Sunshine State.
In a lawsuit filed Monday in Leon Circuit Court, they assert that Hillary Clinton, not Donald Trump, actually won Florida. The plaintiffs, who live in Osceola and Volusia counties, say the state’s official election results were off because of hacking, malfunctioning voting machines and other problems.
They’re asking for a hand recount of every paper ballot in Florida, at the expense of defendants including Trump, Gov. Rick Scott and the 29 Republican presidential electors from Florida.
But even lawyers for the plaintiffs acknowledge time isn’t on their side. Clint Curtis, an Orlando attorney representing the plaintiffs, said the defendants may not respond by the time the Electoral College meets on Dec. 19.
“They can ignore it entirely,” he said.
He said he has received a “deluge” of reports from voters across the state of problems on election day, including people being turned away at the polls and told they’d already voted. Florida Division of Elections officials reported only a few “minor issues” on election day.
“Until the veterans showed up, the protestors were being treated horribly and the media only covered it a bit when they thought there might be bloodshed. They didn’t cover the reason they were there, though.”
bid, I think you are right about that. kinda hard to ignore vets standing up as shields to protect unarmed folks who just want to protect their water supply (like the citizens of bismark successfully did)
jack, oil and water don’t mix… specially if one wants to drink it
The Army ordered additional review of alternative routes, including more detailed information on a route Dakota Access considered early in its planning that would have crossed the Missouri River about 10 miles north of Bismarck.
But previously, in the environmental assessment, the corps concluded the Bismarck route was not a “viable alternative” for several reasons, including its proximity to wellhead source water protection areas that are avoided to protect municipal water supply wells.
jack, for emphasis, a repeat from above: … the Bismarck route was not a “viable alternative” for several reasons, including its proximity to wellhead source water protection areas that are avoided to protect municipal water supply wells.
but hell, they’re just Indians…. so who cares? btw, wonder what our old trail friend rez would say.
Yesterday evening when I recalled all of your kind thoughts to KumCho, she responded by saying “Let me out of this damned kimchi jar so that I can thank them properly!”
To her thanks, I offer my own, humble, Thank You.
but hell, they’re just Indians…. so who cares?
That’s keeping it rational.
There’s NIMBY and then there is IMBY. I think this particular case boils down to, would the planned route encroach on the sovereign rights of an Indian nation? If yes, deal with the nation’s government. If no, deal with the Federal government while trying to assuage the fears of the Indian nation’s activists.
This is not a case like the nation of Ecuador trying to collect a fee from companies placing satellites in geosynchronous orbit over the Equator. This, to my eyes, involves issues that I would fight over.
I have no problem with what they protest. Hell… Rick and I protested a pipeline and compressor station that was going to be built very close to us. (It proved to be unprofitable and the project was shut down). And yes it was a case of NIMBY… don’t give a shit. What I’m not fond of is the thinking that Native Americans are special from the rest of us. So let me remind some of what Jamie posted on this blog yesterday… and I agree with it.
“It is a bad sign when the people of a country stop identifying themselves with the country and start identifying with a group. A racial group. Or a religion. Or a language. Anything, as long as it isn’t the whole population.”
You are welcome, KumCho.
The main reason I am a part of all this here is that the Trail never forgets who has traveled it through the years. Memories are our trusty guides. This is truly a community of good souls.
Many thanks to Mr Crawford for starting this. Trail Mix is a testament to those he attracts.
Ya done good.
Some of the protesters are nimby. Some are banana : build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything.
Curious if the (outside) protesters would eventually choose to live in that area, contribute to the tax base & add valuable $ to the economy. North Dakota is not an easy place to call home. My immigrant Grandpa had his first job in this country as a blacksmith in a town built for workers laying railroad track. When the job was done, he left, even after being offered land for a homestead. The area was that harsh & unforgiving.
My whole point is that you don’t encourage a negative. There are three at work here. One the US should honor its treaties. We have treaties with indigenous peoples who have had them constantly violated whenever what was on them or in them became more valuable to anyone outside that group than the people living on them. The US either honors its agreements or it doesn’t. Claiming to be honorable when violating promises is insufferable.
(2) Fossil fuels are a dying industry. We may need it short term but encouraging additional exploration & development is economic stupidity when wind, solar, and hydro would be less invasive and dangerous.
(3) The US gains no economic benefit from this pipeline. It brings destructive sludge out of Canada for movement to TX for distribution globally. It is pure greed in action that doesn’t truly benefit the people whos land it is using.
30 Years of Oil and Gas Pipeline Accidents
Sorry I missed the greetings to Kum Cho. She is and always will be a welcome companion on the Trail.
I lived in ND for most of the summer of 1960. Prior to that I had cherished romantic (Hollywoodish) ideas about life as a Dakota warrior on the Great Plains. After that summer I no longer entertained such illusions.
North Dakota is ghastly harsh. By June it is already brown, and it doesn’t get green again until the next April.
ND has very good walleye, sauger, and yellow perch fishing.
ND also has Grand Forks AFB home of 100s of 1000s airmen and their families since the 1950s. Rumor was, if one pissed someone senior off, a _very_ lengthy trip to Grand Forks could be arranged.
The school buses driving thru our 25-mph housing area have slowed dramatically in recent days; wonder how long that will last.
as always with this one, I’m having trouble working up to a strong opinion about this pipeline business. never have invested the proper energy into understanding the issues. but I’m all for the Indians getting their way now and then.
Well it looks like there is a real problem with facts
First, Jamie, It is called Dakota access pipeline for a reason. It is for moving crude from ND to Ill. Canada is not involved.
Pat, The standing rock reservation is like all of rural ND very low population density about 3 people per sq mile. The Bismark metro area has a population of 130,000. The Standing Rock Reservation has a population of 8000 and half of those folks live in South Dakota. The nearest town to the pipeline is Cannon Ball. It and the surrounding country side in the census area is about 800 people. These are people who would be the most affected if there was an oil spill.
Flatus from what I can tell the pipeline is a few miles north of the reservation so I’m not certain what their rights are more than any other stake holder in the region.
That may be the problem, they wouldn’t be the first minority group holding up a big project for economic gain, it certainly happens in our world. Wonder if a new or extended water and sewage treatment would make a lot of those sacred grounds be less sacred?
One other thing, environmentally, a new pipeline would be a much safer way to move the oil than the current method of rail cars and old pipelines converted to moving crude oil.
But then this isn’t about the environment is it?
As to the who lives in ND question apparently nobody if they don’t have too. Of the 16000 enrolled members of the Standing Rock Tribe only about 6500 of them live on the reservation.
It is still their reservation. I also consider the Bakken Oil field to be a monstrosity any way. Anything that stops it, is a great idea. It was a typical boom and bust development with major destruction as the price to pay for what is a temporary benefit.
Oh and I was thinking of Keystone as well as Bakken. Don’t get me started on Fracking and other short term wealth for long term disasters.
There’s NIMBY and there’s NIMY, which when it comes to treaties with Native American Tribes, there’s all the difference in the world. I haven’t followed this very closely – other than closely enough to have nothing but disgust for the Sheriff’s department who hosed the demonstrators down in freezing temps. I for one have little faith in the environmental safety of such pipelines – they are probably fine when they are new, but they are new only for a short while, then weather and wear work on them until they leak. Relatively speaking big leaks are pretty rare it seems, but when they happen it’s a fricking disaster. Seems to me the pipeline company doesn’t really give a shit.
The Army Corp of Engineers denied the permit for a section of the pipeline that goes under the river which is the source of water
Something people have a right to be concerned about. I think a fracked oil spill in the river is an environmental concern So maybe it is about the environment
Instead of gathering in DC – I think everyone should go to standing rock on inauguration day.
Here’s Vox’s article on the stalled project, complete with a map. Prof. Tobias is at my old law school, BTW.
Jamie… the big protest over the pipeline going through here (besides the fear of a leak) was that it wasn’t going to benefit this area either. It would take gas fracked from upper state NY through western Mass., then up through southern NH (where I live) back into Mass. to the seacoast… then loaded onto ships for sales overseas. If it benefited anywhere in this country other than the pockets of the gas co., I still wouldn’t have liked it but at least would have understood it. It is very much a “fuck Americans we want our profits” industry.
More of the Obama to Trump – Class to Trash shift in Presidency for Fun and Profit program
Secret Service Advertised as a new “Amenity” for Trump Tower
Meet the Press
The hustlers, hucksters, hacks, and cowards who helped elect Donald Trump
The article for all of us who have been swearing at TV screens for months.
“If it benefited anywhere in this country other than the pockets of the gas co., I still wouldn’t have liked it but at least would have understood it.”
renee, guess who benefits in this case.
Trump Closely Tied to Energy Transfer Partners, Operators of the Dakota Access Oil Pipeline
The Guardian is reporting new details about Donald Trump’s close financial ties to Energy Transfer Partners, operators of the Dakota Access oil pipeline. Kelcy Warren, the chief executive of Energy Transfer Partners, has given just over $100,000 to elect Trump and another $67,000 to the Republican National Committee. In addition, Trump’s financial disclosure forms show he has between $500,000 and $1 million invested in Energy Transfer Partners, with up to another $1 million more in Phillips 66, which will have a 25 percent stake in the pipeline once it is built.
pogo, thanks for that vox link. the map really clarifies some of the arguments made earlier in the game of suits.
jack & renee, aside from whose backyard it is/is’nt in and who does/doesn’t benefit economically and whether Indians are the new black/chosen of god, the thread merely expresses I was impressed by and moved to honor all those mil. veterans of diverse wars who came in winter and who were willing to stand between the armed and the unarmed. don’t see that kind of thing often nowadays.
“Rumor was, if one pissed someone senior off, a _very_ lengthy trip to Grand Forks could be arranged.”
A pal of mine claimed that Minot was way worse than Grand Forks. Apparently, Thule is the ultimate torture.
I worked with a guy who had the “pleasure” of a year long duty assignment in Minot. He described it as hell on earth. He said he could not believe how cold it was in January and February. This from a guy who grew up in Alabama – go figure that he’d find North Dakota cold..
started little after 4:10
Watch live: President Obama delivers remarks on counterterrorism
My neighbor is from Minot,ND… she thinks it’s balmy here in NH.. 🙂
Craig… if you did the changes to this site you talked about a few days ago…. THANK YOU!… this site is super fast now.
Thoroughly enjoyed the President even being a little wonky and in the weeds. I will BIGLY miss having a President who can speak coherently in complete sentences without repetition of one syllable words BELIEVE ME.
Jamie, sigh… but it was nice for 8 years.
PatD – Thanks for this thread. The Obama admin could’ve & should’ve done something to protect the rights of the protestors, not to mention, actually do something about this issue. A huge thank you is certainly due to the veterans.
PBS World had quite a few shows featuring Native American lives, from poisoned water causing birth defects to the history of La Crosse.
Jamie is correct about the pipeline not only being a potentially dangerous pollutant, but also if no benefit. If Trump hates China so much (talking about Keystone, here), why would you allow Canada to destroy our land and water for some temporary jobs, so that Canada can sell their oil to China. If he had a brain in his head, he would be all in for ramping up renewables & retraining folks instead of sending down into the coal mines.
We could definitely due with some long-term thinking, especially when it comes to the environment.
“Why not Minot?”
Well?! Don’t like a $4B pair of planes to protect his worthless ass, but invite a Japanese company to set up shop and export the profits to Japan?
Life is good now that I allow myself only a brief read of various political sites.
104 year old Pearl Harbor vet. Wow. My father and father-in-law were WWII vets. European theater. My father was supposed to go to South Pacific, but something happened and his orders were pulled back. Good thing, his troop was wiped out. He was a horse soldier. Last of their kind.
Minot is undoubtedly colder, but Grand Forks had many, many more outside jobs ranging from 24×7 security for nuclear loaded B52s to helicopters ferrying people out to ICBM sites to constant maintenance on the tankers and bombers. No excuses at the height of the Cold War.
So far as Thule is concerned, it was said that there was a girl behind every tree.
On my first Army tour in Korea I was assigned to a place called Wonju. It was so cold that we had to start each of our trucks every three hours during the night or else the engines would be so stiff that we wouldn’t be able to get to our weapons storage area.
OK, Obamas Army Corps of Engineers is the one who stopped the goddamn pipeline for now. After January 20 bet that opposition will be dropped. He has been supportive of the protesters from day one. Indian affairs insiders creditd Contacts with Obama as being a moving force in their activities.
Is anyone watching trumps absolute fucking bullshit speech in North Carolina? He doesn’t know what the fuck he is talking about. Honest to God. We are screwed.
(Sorry, but Jesus)
Thanks Pat for honoring the protesters & the Vets. I was very proud of the Veterans who stood with the Native Americans. No matter how few of them there are who live there, they still have rights. Oh, I forgot minorities and poor people rarely have rights when money is involved!
Bottom line: Pipeline=Profit .period.
If someone could figure out a way to make billions from the sun’s free energy, we’d all start worshiping the sun…and paying for it!
I too will dearly miss having a President who doesn’t sound like a blithering idiot when he opens his mouth!
Granny, 4 years from now what are the odds you’ll be saying:
“I too will dearly miss having a President who sounds like a blithering idiot when he opens his mouth!”
damned little I’d wager. ?
Pogo: There’s not a snowball’s chance in hell! Also, I doubt that I’ll have to wait 4 years to not say it LOL!
Jamie: That Meet The Press article is like a walk through the last year of screaming into the void!
What the hell have you done, Poobah?
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