Let Kim Go Nuclear, Conspire With China To End His Regime

Reviewing the options I don’t see any reasonable way out other than accepting North Korea as a nuclear power, then invite them to the big-boy table and insist they play by the rules.

There are plenty of countries we tolerated going nuclear when we didn’t like it, going way back to the Soviet Union many decades ago. Deterrence, as in mutually assured destruction, has worked so far. In North Korea’s case it would be more like unilateral destruction — and it won’t be us. And that’s all we can do, have ever been able to do, ever since we “distinguished” ourselves as the only nation every to rain down a nuclear holocaust on an enemy.

Letting North Korea go nuclear isn’t ideal, but I don’t see an acceptable alternative.

On The Backend

For the long-term big picture, it seems overdue for the U.S. to seriously (and secretly) talk with China about a unified, peaceful and non-aligned Korean peninsula that sends Little Kim and South Korea’s corrupt government packing. This could be a good time to start anew on this question. China and the U.S. each would have to give up long held policies to get there, but surely this crisis demonstrates our combined self-interest in putting this ridiculous running gag of two Koreas behind us.

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67 thoughts on “Let Kim Go Nuclear, Conspire With China To End His Regime”

  1. boss, china’s druthers would be to adopt as their own both koreas and Taiwan  in the swap for peaceful coexistence.  they think big and long term.   

  2. Although your ideas are quite reasonable and worthwhile, we are dealing with a man who has conversations, on the telephone, with people who are not there.  A man-child who knows everything and is his own attorney, advisor and publicist.  In other words a man who might be considered insane.

    Although I consider Pence even worse than the orange buffoon, it is possible he is rational enough to understand that his gods would allow him to not set off WWIII.  One issue is that pence is guilty too and would not last long in the Oval Office.

    So, our best hope is the Dems taking the House back and the current occupants live out their lives in Florence Colorado.  Then we can have a reasonable person in the WH, maybe before the end of 2018.

  3. Valerie Plame Wilson
    @ValeriePlame
    Wait. Trump has a “spiritual advisor”??? twitter.com/salon/status/8…
    1:22 PM – 9 Aug 2017

  4. the guardian:

    The Canadian military has been deployed to build a 500-person camp at a remote location at the border as authorities grapple with a growing number of asylum seekers crossing into Canada by foot from the United States.

    On Wednesday, nearly 100 soldiers were sent to Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle – just across the border from Champlain, New York – to erect heated tents to temporarily house as many as 500 people, the armed forces said in a statement. The site has become a popular crossing spot in recent months, with hundreds of people a day making the easy trip over a shallow ditch that connects both countries.

    Since the start of the year, the numbers of asylum seekers entering Canada from the US has risen sharply. More than 4,000 of them – many of them driven by fears of Donald Trump’s crackdown on immigrants – have entered Canada at remote, unguarded locations along the border.

  5. from tpm:
    In an interview with the New Yorker’s Ryan Lizza ….. Scaramucci called attention to the man Pence announced as his new chief of staff on June 29, Nick Ayers.
    “Why do you think Nick’s there, bro?” Scaramucci asked Lizza, referring to Ayers. 

    “Are you stupid?” Scaramucci continued. “Why is Nick there? Nick’s there to protect the vice president because the vice president can’t believe what the fuck is going on.”

  6. Nancy P for president

    Yesterday was a very bad day for me. I spent two hours sitting in road construction because the so-called Traffic Management People are idiots. Then I got home ..very late and when I was sending down groceries etc in our winch system– the anchor pole snapped and the bucket (see my picture ) fell from the sky….the good news is it landed in a tree and when our trusty young people came to bail us out ..they found nothing had been damaged, Apparently the wet winter cracked the cement and the pole rotted. It will be fixed of course..but because Mr. C is in the middle of a gout attack it means I have to carry the propane down the hill. Sometimes living in very rural areas has its limits

  7. Craig…  as much as it pains me…  I agree that accepting a nuclear NK is the only sane solution.

    On our way back this morning from a neighboring town’s diner…   yummy breakfast…   a doe and 2 fawns crossed the road at a safe distance from our car.  First time we’ve seen twin fawns.

  8. Young roadrunner passing through the backyard…

    As we continue the longest war in Afghanistan, we need to be reminded that once we ‘accepted’ both Pakistan and India as nuclear global cousins — we had to fight a war in Afghanistan to counter the nuclear threat of Pakistan and India.  Nuclear relationships are so complicated.  But, it appears the norks are already glowing with the power.  We should offer an invitation for the norks to join the nuclear community since they can’t beat us.  It will take the wind out of russia and china who have been supporting the norks.  But this time, the US of AA is geographically a bit exposed.  And our commander-in-thief only owns one golf course in the western US (Cali) and he really doesn’t understand radioactivity being such a toxic human like himself.  So, there is that wild card of trump and the generals are there to hopefully control him.

  9. It has been so hot here!   How hot has it been?   When I opened the package of solar eclipse  stamps, the thermocromic coating was gone.   I was robbed of removing the coating myself!  I can’t wait until the climate change stamp is produced with special effects.   

     

  10. Eh, Trump handed regional hegemony to China when he withdrew the U.S. from the TPP, now all we can do is sail around the South China Sea, looking tough.  The U.S. needs to incent and support trade development in China’s regional economic competitors, like Viet Nam, Malaysia, Cambodia, and hit China where it hurts- their fragile, fake economy.  That would take a generation, at least.

    Basically, we have to adapt to the reality that we don’t call the shots, anymore.

  11. We needed a great diplomat, you people elected a big buffoon.  Life has consequences- welcome to yours.

     

    …and thanks for dragging me into it!

  12. By giving control of the most powerful and destructive military in human history to a megalomaniacal simpleton, we created an MORAL OBLIGATION for the rest of the world to undermine our authority, and ultimately destroy our Republic, because we are not responsible enough to be trusted with that kind of power.  Shit’s THAT fucking bad.  Yeesh.

     

    Oh, well.  Enjoy your day!

    Edit- the most important question is how do we protect our regional allies, specifically Japan and South Korea, in the short-term, against “Northern aggression”, and I have no clue, but I would assume they would prefer we didn’t “let NK go nuclear”.

  13. North Korea hacks for $. Apparently their last worldwide effort wasn’t as lucrative as they had hoped. Could this bomb scare be another ploy to blackmail rich western countries into forking over dough? Sort of the ultimate hack? Interest enough countries to make deals, placate the biting flea.

  14. good point about TPP, Bink. Getting out of that tipped a lot power China’s way. Of course, Hillary claimed during the election she would have gotten out but many predicted she would flip back to supporting it once in office.

  15. Personally I’d hack electrical grids, disrupting water, communications, banking, traffic lights because nothing annoys people more than quality of life issues. Also my overhead would be cheap. Nuclear stuff is insanely expensive, plus it’s a one shot deal.

  16. worth a try, SJ. This mess is as tall an order for Trail Mix as the rest of the world. Still, keep on noodling ideas. I haven’t abandoned just killing the little bastard.

  17. Because we were the first to develop and use a nuclear weapon, because we sit on the UN Security Council and because we engaged in an arms race that made us and the USSR – now Russia dn satellites where they maintain nuclear weapons – the only two mega powers capable of vaporizing the world, we seem to believe that we have some authority to determine which countries can and cannot develop their own weapons – at least their own nuclear weapons.  We are idiots to think that way. We either enabled or simply acquiesced to Israel developing nucs, we did nothing to prevent India from developing nucs, and France and Pakistan and China, and now NK, to the collective tune of 1100 or so nuclear weapons in those other countries other than us or Russia.  We’re delusional to believe we are somehow the arbiters of nuclear development by sovereign nations that feel their existence may be threatened by every other fucking nuclear armed country.  NK gave us the royal “FU, you’re not the boss of me routine”  and we have our dear leader who acts like either a goddamn 3 year old or a playground bully or both in response.  So who’s threatened?  NK sez in response – we’re gonna lob about 4 missile to within about 20 miles of Guam.  Was SFB trying to elicit that response?  Regardless, he got it. And if NK does that what next? Dispatch a B1 or B2 (is that what we’re flying these days?)to drop something closer to NK than that – or do we just do the anti-missile system thing and blow them up in route? I’m really not interested in seeing how the two morons* who are comparing the size of their hands** will play this out.

    *both of whom are dumb as posts, crazy as bedbugs, or both
    **dicks.

  18. Patd

    The hilarious part is that I could probably find refuge in Canada with my brother-in-law who fled there in the late sixties to avoid Viet Nam.  The Australian cousins are too close to the action and the Scottish ones are a touchy group.

    Anyway, the mountains of Alberta are looking good unless Fearless leader gets on the stick and creates a multi-cabin somewhere above the water line in Florida.

     

  19. “U.S. to seriously (and secretly) talk with China about a unified, peaceful and non-aligned Korean peninsula that sends Little Kim and South Korea’s corrupt government packing”

     

    Lol

  20. “or do we just do the anti-missile system thing and blow them up in route?”

    pogo, those don’t always work even when we know exactly where and when their targets will fly.

     

    btw, what’s happened in the areas the norks other rockets have fallen?  imagine they ruin the fishing, pollute the water and otherwise disrupt mother nature.  what damage can be expected 20 miles off guam if they land there and what are the unintended consequences of other sh*t happening if our anti-missiles do make 4 lucky strikes?

  21. Trump’s presser today: Sounded like he’s decided on a military option against North Korea.

  22. The rules that have governed the Club of Duality i.e., the USSR and USA making the rules so far as who could or couldn’t have nukes wasn’t based on them being the firstist with the mostist, but they were the ones that accepted Mutually Assured Destruction as doctrine enveloping all forms of life.

    Neither the DPRK nor China nor India nor France nor Israel nor Iran are members of the Club. China, not the USA has the privilege and obligation of squashing the Kim regime and stripping North Korea of its nukes as we did in the South when we removed our nuclear weapons from that country in the 1970s. China aided and abetted the Kim family in their  design and production. They get to remove them.

    Why should we start a war on the Korean peninsula that would surely involve Japan. Let’s, instead, turn Ambassador Haley loose on China. We’ve got the muscle to shame them into doing what’s right.

  23. Flatus, as our Korea special adviser your thoughts matter to me. Do you think Trump’s threats are more or less likely to spur China? Today he ramped up the war rhetoric against North Korea and also made not-so-veiled threats against China on trade if it didn’t get more involved.

    And looking way down the road, is a unified Korea ever going to be possible?

  24. Craig, so far as I can tell,  Mr Trump has no real understanding of the very diverse Chinese people beyond the anecdotes garnered from his kids through the exploitation of their labor force. Be assured his distinguished visitors sanitized the toilet seats at his place in Florida before they used them.

    Nikki is the one to articulate the whip China now campaign. She can get lots of help from our professional diplomatic and military corps.

    There will be no reunification until Kim is gone and, step-by-step, the millions of tons of mines and other defenses are removed from the DMZ. This will allow a full generation for people to become thrilled about the idea.

  25. Thanks Flatus. Agree with your Haley proposal. Seems to me that in the long run both China and United States would be better off with a unified and non-aligned Korea. Is that naive?

  26. Patd

    Rockets into the ocean are the least of the fish assaults.  All those jets taking off every day are more than enough to poison the air.  Add in the methane cow farts and we are probably all doomed.

  27. Craig, I’m not suggesting there are any better alternatives, but accepting North Korea as a nuclear power is fraught. Out nuclear policy should include commitment to non-proliferation. Allowing NK to continue to develop more sophisticated nuclear weaponry will create more realistic aspirations for other nuclear power wannabes. And NK will gladly export know how and materials if given half a chance. They’ll make Pakistan look like a mere bodega of nuclear technology in comparison. Then Iran, with the tacit approval of our friends in Moscow, will also re-start its program. Sooner or later, one of these demigods will decide to play for real.

    NK as a nuclear power would also be destabilizing regionally. Will South Korea, Taiwan and Japan stand idly be as they are outgunned and potential objects of blackmail?

    As I said, I don’t know what the better alternative is. NK has long held out for, and the US has resisted bi-lateral negotiations without abandonment of their program as a pre-condition. It may be that there is a solution in that direction.

    What I do know is that I’d be far more comfortable with someone else sitting on the Iron Throne in Washington.

  28. Koreans have a centuries long animus to both the Chinese and Japanese as those two peoples took turns invading, plundering, and raping the peninsula. Dislike of Japan, especially, will be a strong unifyer. The ability of aged relatives, separated by war, to reunite will be heralded on both sides.

    I think North Koreans will be mightily impressed by the economic success of the South. They will be suspicious of the Freedoms enjoyed by the Republic’s citizens; full reintegration will take years.

    A reunited Korea will be staunchly independent, will love America for sticking by them, will try to fulfill its moral obligations to impoverished peoples, and will be a wonderful country.

  29. “What I do know is that I’d be far more comfortable with someone else sitting on the Iron Throne in Washington.”

     

    Kim: “Enough!  I have 3 large dragons.”

  30. Trump needs to start a war to stay in office.  That is all that this is about.  Impeach Trump- save the world.

  31. Cajun, I share your concern, just don’t see an acceptable alternative.

    Flatus, a united and independent Korea must happen. Here’s hoping this crisis kicks that can down the road. I know that phrase generally means postponing something, but right now the can isn’t even on the road, so that’d be a start.

  32. patd, I’m aware that the anti missile missile systems don’t work all that well.  I was throwing out options.  If it DID work, that could certainly cause Lilkim to think ruh-roh if he’s got half a brain.

    Flatus, whether a country is in or out of the  club of duality, in my view, if they have nuclear weapons that can be delivered by air outside their borders, they are members of the other (nuclear) club should be treated as if they have full membership for the purposes of monitoring at a minimum.  I just don’t know how you (we) have any power, aside from force and economic sanctions, to prevent the development (or purchase) of nuclear weapons by any state. 

    I’ve found it odd that we attempt to restrict the one class of weapon that has led to the death of fewer people than any other – and none since 1945 – although I acknowledge that it has the potential to kill much more efficiently than any other. (Leaving aside any discussion of restrictions on nerve and chemical weapons for the most part).

  33. Mar 17, 2016 – Trump and jihadi terrorism both ranked sixth on a recent list of the 10 biggest threats to the world’s economy.

     

    I think PG may have moved up on the list

  34. A couple of things need to change.

    First let NK saber rattle, it is just that.

    What the US should have said several presidents ago.

    The  NK leaders are not interested in suicide so no they are not a threat. Because they know we track them and know their exact location. If they were to be foolish enough to attack us or our allies,  we have tactical nukes that can take them out any time  dig a deep hole and we just bury them in their bunker.

    Second redirect sanctions to the folks that are selling the missile tech. Point out that we don’t trade with people who profit off the development missile technology in NK. So if you are a significant stock investor in one of these companies  none of the companies you are invested in can do business  with the US and no US company can do business with them. So if Chinese companies want to do business with the US (and they do) they or their major stockholders  can’t be engaged  prohibited trade with nk.

    But this is Trump and his Republican lackeys so never mind

    Jack

     

  35. I subscribe to Ms Bronc’s post of 6:52 am, Mr Joe, and Mr Flatus.

    This potentially world-destroying kerfuffle is merely glitter used to keep our eyes off of the russia/money laundering/foreign espionage-sabotage probes. In noKorea, this mega-bloviating is used to keep the succession firmly in king kim’s greasy fingers.

    noKorea will be a mess until king kim has anointed an adult MALE kim, and forced everyone to bow and scrape at HIM. ‘Course, kim won’t be able to trust that heir as long as the two are both alive.

  36. whsky, xrepub — good points

    Trump should just shut up about North Korea. Every time he talks about this he feeds Kim’s ego.

  37. Unfortunately, behind all the bluster and nuke rattling, there are king kim’s actual nukes and missiles. I don’t have a license to read the guy’s mind, so I cannot sift and measure the ACTUAL thoughts and emotions that move him.

    I have nothing with which to judge king kim other than his words. Threatening the US, the RoK, Japan, and possibly the entire world, with nuclear war over import/export & banking is way over the top. This sort of talk does not propel me to thinking that li’l kim possesses gravitas or balance.

    I am inclined to lean on commieChina, and say, your guys made this monstrous dynasty, now you clean house or we will take our business to India and Africa and default on your loans to us !  It’s just an inclination, just to help xi consider how important his import/export & banking are compared to kim’s.

    Just a thought.

  38. Mr Jack,

    Do we know actually know that kim is reasonable, responsible, and wants to live to be 35 ? Maybe the propaganda coming from Seoul was true, that kim is an insane megalomaniac who feeds his uncles (possible pretenders to the throne) to the dogs, and who thinks he’s a god ala caligula or elagalbus.

  39. Great read today and many a good point made.

    That said,Kill the little bastard seems to be the most practicle and effective option on the table.

    I mean what the Hell, it’s not like we haven’t done it before.

  40. Better to have comrade xi call for a conference in Beijing in order to co-ordinate tactics, and upon kim’s triumphant arrival, have the king and his retinue all “catch cold.” I think stalin did that when the Polish government in exile came to Moscow to discuss border matters in the aftermath of WWII.
    The commieChinese could then maneuver an acceptable dictator into place – one who would know his place, who would understand that South Korea’s trade with Beijing is worth more than noKorea’s.

  41. Conventional diplomatic means are now beyond us. Trump has so dumbed down the White House and the state department, that a diplomatic solution could never get off the ground. There is  neither the skill set, gravitas, or understanding of history,required to negotiate a settlement with NK. We have nothing to offer but bluster and blather, and Kim players that game far better than we do.

    I can no longer abide the moniker SFB when referring to Trump. From here forward for me at least, he will just be plain Stupid Fuck. My apologies in advance to any here that I may offend.

  42. Bink,

    Better an armchair assisanation, than an armchair invasion. We played that out in Iraq and Afghanistan. Results still in doubt.

  43. What makes you think the former precludes the latter?

     

    Once again, if you miss, you’ve initiated hostilities, if you don’t, you’ve legitimized state-sanctioned political assassinations, and that knife cuts both ways.

     

    Seriously, if your bright idea is “murder”, think harder.

  44. We went into Iraq for no other purpose than to get rid of Saddam.

    You tell me if we could not have accomplished the same thing with some other method.

    Saddam would be just as dead and tens of thousands of Iraqis would still be alive. I guess it’s not murder as long as you can call it collateral damage.

  45. What’s all this “we” talk?  The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was foolish, full-stop.

     

    …and it’s hundreds of thousands.

    Also, it’s important to note that Saddam was tried in an Iraqi court and executed under its authority. He wasn’t assassinated.

  46. Good bye, Mr Jace. I’m glad that your got all your affairs in order. Sweetie won’t let me have affairs. That saves me a lotta work.

    Thanks for all the music, and the clear writing, of course.

     

  47. military planners call it “decapitation” not assassination. Sometimes it’s a lifesaving option. It’s been our strategy against terrorist groups for many years, with drones and special ops. Just ask Bin Laden. Since we don’t diplomatically recognize NK I don’t see why killing Little Kim is any different than killing Bin Laden, except for the fact that he was much taller.

    Wikipedia: “A decapitation strike is a Military strategy aimed at removing the leadership or Command and control of a hostile government or group. The strategy of shattering or defeating an enemy by eliminating its military and political leadership has long been utilized in warfare.”

  48. Ya know, I would think after 15 years of failure by both Democrats and Republicans we would realize that regime change by violence in it’s various forms really doesn’t solve any problem. every time things get worse. /assassination sounds clean and quick but it gives you the same violent chaos unless done by the locals already in charge, then everybody gets a party..

    Iraq was a powder keg that would have went off with an assassination too.

    Kim and NK’s destruction is coming closer and closer not by Trump or the us military but by the flow of workers into china where reports of the good life come back home with the remittances. North Koreans are starting to want blue jeans too.  And some bright military general will find a way to take over and start nk down that road.

    And yes exrep, Kim wants to live forever, killing troublesome uncles is part of that goal

    Kim’s current behavior is learned behavior, we and our deranged policies have taught him this behavior.

    We need to change, he won’t and what we have been doing for the last 2 or 3 decades hasn’t worked.

    Jack

  49. Decapitation has been successfully demonstrated in Iraq for 14 years and Afghanistan for 16 years. So far, so good.

    The soviets successfully decapitated Afghanistan in the late ’70s. As a result, the soviet union is gone (collateral damage) and the taliban run the place from sunset to sunrise.

    The last truly successful decapitation perpetrated by American arms was in Panama. Since then, we forgot how to do it.

    I disagree with jace. The Iraq fiascos were about disrupting the oil market to raise the price. That saddam was a murderous and untrustworthy ‘ally,’ who publicly eyed other US ‘allies’ in the region greedily was a mere annoyance to the bush war crime family.

  50. I was scared in 1962 with Kennedy/Khrushchev nearly ending up annihilating Miami and I hate seeing the young of today confused and afraid.  Can Bob Kerrey still get around on one leg?  He could be the man;  he assassinated many troublesome Vietnamese village leaders by slitting their throats in the dark of night…he had many kills, so one more notch on his belt?  Sure, why not?  Dennis Rodman won’t turn…or would he?   Pro athletes sell their souls to Almighty Dollar anyway, so just give Rodman  $100,000,000 cash in a bag and send him to Pyongyang to get the job done.

    The USA could prop up a coup for the south and Kerrey could eliminate Un in the north and the DMZ would fade away as the whole thing becomes KOREA.  And we could send over blue ink by the barrel for the thumb-dip election, because that worked out so well in Iraq.

  51. In Oct 1962, I remember thinking it would be great to be in the Bahamas (I’d been there a few months before) for a front row seat. Standing directly a few feet in front of an exploding nuke would save all the muss and fuss, the creak and crack, of slowly and painfully getting old and falling apart.

    ‘Course being a teenager I was only thinking of myself.

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